Surf’s up: the strange dream of Paul White

Paul White's illustration for Shook Magazine

Sometime in June, Shook Magazine asked me if I’d like to interview Paul White for their next issue as he’d done an illustration for them which would need a short piece to accompany it. Being a fan of Paul’s music I said sure. Shook sent through the illustration and that’s when the decision was made to do something a little different to your standard producer/hip hop interview.

I’ve been doing interviews for long enough that I knew I didn’t want to just do the same old thing and looking at Paul’s illustration and thinking about his recently released debut album, I decided it could be quite fun to just chat about dreams and see where it went. So we hooked up one fairly warm London evening outside Euston Station, grabbed a coffee and sat down to chat about dreams.

What you’re about to read is the full, unedited transcript of this chat. A condensed, ‘written up’ version was published in Issue 6 of Shook Magazine. Big thanks go to the Shook team, Paul and Alex Chase for their help, offer and time. An edited version of this q&a is also available on Shook’s site.

‘The Strange Dreams of Paul White’, Paul’s debut album is out now on One Handed Music. Buy it on his bandcamp page.

So let’s start easy, what’s the craziest dream that you can remember having?

Paul White: I had a crazy dream about a month ago. (thinks about it) That’s the thing about dreams innit they’re so hard to describe you know. It was more like a feeling than a load of events, but I was just this energy ball. I wasn’t like a person, I’ve never had a dream like that before. I could move in and out of everything, I could walk through anything, I was this weird kinda blue ball of weird light… I’ve never had anything so out of body in a dream before, it was bizarre. And then I remember, this is gonna sound like some hippie out of body experience, I found my body and I was on my knees, kneeling down onto the earth and it felt like this crazy energy was going from above me, through me and into the earth. I’ve never had a dream like that before, it was so crazy! It was all energies. I’ve had dreams of things happening but nothing like that before. And I woke up feeling very… when I woke up I could feel the energies, it was nice, weird but nice.

Was it quite vivid in your mind when you woke up?

PW: Yeah definitely. I felt like I wanted to document it, because it was so strange and strong. There was something in it.

Did you document it?

PW: Nah… I didn’t quite know how to. It felt like something was going on in my head that night that was pretty big but I still couldn’t figure out what it was.

So for this illustration you’ve done, what was the inspiration? Was there even any inspiration?

PW: I used to draw when I was younger. I got well into acid for two years of my life, and in those two years I used to draw so much, and so this is kind of along the same lines of just drawing anything spontaneous, any old kind of weird feel, mood. There are certain references to dreams, there’s drum machines and there’s water too which is a reference to surfing, which is something I love to do. I always have a recurring dream, I’ve been having it since I was a little kid, about surfing. It’s because I love it and I don’t ever get to do it as I live in London. So I have these weird dreams where everything will be perfect, I’ll be just about to go for a surf, everything will be beautiful, and I’ll get my board, run down to the water and there won’t be any water all of a sudden, or it’ll suddenly be dark or I’ll suddenly have my clothes on. Literally not once in years have I ever surfed in those dreams. I have it all the time.

So you have been surfing then?

PW: Yeah I go every summer, it’s like a tease of sorts. It tortures my soul. So that’s why there are a few little waves at the bottom of the illustration.

What about the faces and people you’ve drawn? There is something about their faces…

PW: I don’t know, I like drawing masks you know?

That’s it. It reminds me of a mask…

PW: I don’t know why, again it’s coming from somewhere inside me you know? I just get visuals of someone’s face, the amount of stuff you can see in a face, I’m just trying to have fun and put it across I guess.

Ok. Well I’ve got some short dream related questions. Have you ever had a dream that ended up becoming true? Not necessarily like a premonition, but more getting a sense of déjà vu from something and thinking ‘that was in my dream!’

PW: I have that with places. Really weird stuff. I can’t remember specifically what, nowhere special but I’ve had a few instances where I’ll be somewhere and I’m like ‘man I’ve been here before, even though I’ve never been here in my life I’ve dreamt this exact spot.’ There are lots of different places in the world so you can interpret that how you want but I’ve had real weird strong feelings from places.

And have you ever had a lucid dream, during the day?

PW: Yeah, in the studio! (laughs) Not whole stories, but little half day dreams. I make music, most of the time so late, like most people, and I remember a few times making music half asleep and feeling like I was kind of in a dream and then realizing I’m half awake half asleep writing music. I remember making a song and feeling like I was awake but I wasn’t, and then actually waking up and finding a song written and feeling confused wondering how it had happened. It might have something to do with smoking (laughs)

What’s the craziest thing you’ve ever eaten in a dream that you can remember?

PW: Can’t remember, I’m sure there’s some really weird stuff but I can’t remember.

Have you ever killed anybody in a dream?

PW: I don’t know if I have.

Have you ever died in a dream?

PW: Pretty sure I have, or if not very nearly.

Have you ever had a dream about making a beat? Or about a song or a melody?

PW: Last night I woke up and I had a beat in my dream, I couldn’t hear it all in my head but I could hear a reminiscence of what it was. And it really did my head in because I thought ‘if I could remember that it would be good.’ The only times when I hear music really clearly is just before I go to bed sometimes. I’m sure maybe there’s some science in that of some chemicals in your brain or something going off just before you go to sleep. I’m not sure, but I’ll hear perfect beats sometimes and it’s really frustrating because you’re knackered lying down and you can hear it. And I’m not the type of artist to hear a whole song, I’ll just hear little melodies and stuff. I’ve heard whole orchestras before but then I thought ‘I’m never going to be able to write that down!’ (laughs) But yeah I have music in my head just before I go to sleep or just as I fall asleep, in the first stages of sleep.

Working with samples do you then just hear like chunks of stuff, like samples in your head?

PW: I don’t know what it is, whether it’s the music I’ve listened to during the day or what but I’ll hear everything not just a loop, massive melodies, a whole orchestral piece, and it really does my head in.

So have you ever felt the urge to wake up and use what you hear?

PW: I’m normally too tired by then! (laughs) So I can never be bothered to act on it which makes it even more frustrating. It’s almost like I’m tricking myself.

I was reading recently about how dreams are a way for our brain to rearrange the memories from the day, and that’s why you generally dream about things that are recent or have happened that day because it’s your brain’s way of putting everything in place in your memory. But then apparently if you smoke it messes up that process and so you end up with these weird dreams of things happening that are quite surreal but still based on a degree of reality and it’s all jumbled up.

PW: That’s when you remember them too.

Exactly. I know when I stopped smoking I started remembering all my dreams which was very weird. But anyways, have you had one of those dreams you can remember where everything was jumbled up and you wake up feeling like there was some weird stuff going on but you’re not quite sure.

PW: I don’t know, in a way I won’t be confused. Being in the studio you’ve got nothing to distract you but thinking about things and your life. So all you’re doing all day is looking in, rather than forgetting about what is inside. It’s really annoying because smoking really does mess up my dreams, it’s so annoying. When I don’t smoke I really do have those mental dreams, like everybody does I’m sure, these big movie style kind of dreams, and it really does do my head in that I can’t remember them all.

So actually on a similar tip, would you agree with the theory that maybe life is a dream and dreaming is reality? That’s it the other way round?

PW: Well I’ve got an open mind to everything, and I’m one of those people who believe the mind is more powerful than anything and so who can tell what’s real and what’s not. Our brain has a way of filtering through things. I completely believe in that, so if more people believe that too, realized that the mind is more powerful than anything, life would be a bit more like a dream and people would probably enjoy it more too. It would take the pressure off things and we could all relax a bit more, not take everything so seriously. So yeah I could easily believe that reality is all in my dreams and all of this is just… that’s why the Matrix is interesting, I don’t necessarily like the film that much but the idea behind it, it’s a wicked idea. I’m not a film buff at all but I think that’s why I like this idea…

Actually it’s funny you say you’re not a film buff because I was going to ask about whether or not there was a movie about dreams that was a like a standard for you?

PW: I don’t know. There’s an old film called ‘Altered States’ about this guy who goes to Mexico and brings back a lot of crazy mushrooms and does experimentations in an isolation tank back in the 60s. And he talks about the power of the mind, and he goes off on a dream thing in his head, during which he witnessed the beginning of earth and humankind and how that gradually turns into reality, so his dream basically becomes reality. I reckon that’s crazy and I’m fascinated by that sort of thing. It’s the closest to a movie about dreams I could recommend I guess.

Ok, and music wise what would be your perfect dream music?

PW: Ahh… everything! Short clips of everything! (laughs) Just so much variety. That would be my perfect dream music, a variety of colours, moods, and feelings. It would be all genres.

Can you remember ever having a soundtrack to a dream or something like that?

PW: I think I have, I remember hearing music lots of times in my dreams but I can’t remember anything precisely. It’s really annoying trying to remember. The smoking’s got me again! (laughs) I never dream about smoking though, never ever. Which is quite weird.

Yeah it’s a weird one, I can’t say I have either. I stopped smoking when I was in Japan and started remembering all my dreams and I couldn’t quite cope with it. Especially when you stop smoking after years, it becomes pretty full on.

PW: Yeah I had that too, I stopped smoking for a while and my dreams became really intense. It was almost too much, your dreams are so good and have such a feeling to them and such a profound effect on you that when you wake up you’re like ‘oh man that’s just fucked up my whole day!’ (laughs)

Ha ha, yeah it’s another of those where you think you’d rather stay in the dream and go back into it for the rest of the day rather than wake up to reality.

PW: Yeah totally, like with my surfing dream, I wish I could stay in that rather than wake up and actually get to surf. It’s funny because really random shit will happen in this recurring dream about surfing. Something just popped into my head. There has been a million reasons why I can’t go and surf in those dreams but there was one I can remember now where I was just about to go out, I’d looked out the window and there was some nice waves and all of a sudden the house was on a giant rope, like a swing, and the whole house was swinging side to side! And it’s like my brain is making up random reasons why I can’t surf. It’s got to the point where there are no more logical reasons so it throws up these crazy ones to stop me from surfing. So I’ll wake up and wonder ‘what the hell was that one all about?!’ It really frustrates me man. I cannot wait for the day where I actually surf in my dream. I’ve got out there in the sea once in a dream, it’s the closest I’ve ever been to it and all of sudden there was no waves, or I didn’t have a board.

So when you do go surfing, what do you dream about?

PW: A friend of mine asked me the same thing recently, and I still don’t dream about surfing. It really pisses me off! Maybe one day when I know I can do it everyday I’ll be able to surf in my dreams too, that’ll be a big day for me.

So where do you go surfing then?

PW: Just Cornwall and the south east. It’s lovely down there. I go just before Easter or after summer, September/October, that’s when you get the nice waves. It’s my other love, surfing and music. I’ve been into boarding sports since I was a kid: skating, snowboarding, surfing. Skating was my life for years, I had my own snowboard too, going on the dry slopes. So it’s funny because I’ve gone from someone who was outdoors all the time to being indoors all the time, from really healthy to really unhealthy. So I don’t know how that’s affected my dreams. I love to still skate but I don’t want to bust my hands, I’ve already busted my tendon. I’ve had 3 months with only one hand and it was hard enough.

It’s one of those things when you become older isn’t it? You become more aware of your own limits and how fragile your body is.

PW: When you’re kid you think you can just bounce off stuff. Now it hurts.

So if you dream about surfing, do you also dream about skating or snowboarding?

PW: Yeah skating I do, all the time too. When I dream about skating I dream that I have the best skates in the world, and I dream about old spots I used to hang out at. But they’ll be distorted, so like the South Bank in London, I’ll dream about skating in there but it’s always different and distorted, as dreams are. It’s funny actually I dream about all physical stuff and I never dream about sitting in the studio.

(At this point we tangent off on the old Tony Hawk video games for a few minutes)

Well the album is called ‘The Strange Dreams of Paul White’ so was that to do with actual dreams or something else?

PW: It’s actually my manager’s idea. He knows I like to work visually, and when I was younger I did art as well as music, and I’ve also done music for TV, and I see it as all the same really. He knew that and he knows I like ideas, moods, atmospheres, so that’s where the idea for the strange dreams title came from really.

It’s a perfect title really, the album is ephemeral and it’s got a dream like quality. We were talking about soundtracking dreams, I can see how tracks from your album would be a good soundtrack for a dream. Going back to the art thing, you said you did visual arts before is that right?

PW: Yeah drawing and also writing, anything creative to an extent. I’ve very much been into art for a long time, and I never knew whether or not I wanted to do art or music until I was 16, I liked them both just the same and then gradually one took over and I moved towards music.

Do you find that when you do something creative as your primary occupation you come to realise the need for something else to balance this out. So if you make music for a living you start to understand the benefit of having something else, whether creative, or a sport.

PW: Yeah for sure, I’ve been wanting to do that for a long time actually, getting back into drawing I mean. As years have gone on when I feel the need to take a break I want to go back towards other creative things I like. Sacrifice and discipline have been two key words for me over the last five years, dedicating myself to the music I guess, and so now I still feel the need to do music pretty much all the time, but when I want to take a break I find it hard figuring out what to do anymore. I really get confused about what I should do, I want to pick up a pen but I can’t turn off anymore. I find it hard to turn off. But if I lived by the sea… (laughs) that’s my haven, it’s what I need, I need to live by the sea! I’d go surfing everyday. I try to do different things though, like I got a drum kit a couple of months ago so I’m trying to sit on that now when I want a break. I’ve never learnt to drum either…

So how is it moving from drum machines to drum kits?

PW: Very bizarre, it feels like the wrong way around. I’ve got beats in my head but I can’t get them out at all on a drum kit, so I’m like ‘what the hell is going on?!’ I’ll get a kick and a snare but nothing more sometimes. It’s really hypnotic though, which I guess is what music is you know? It’s like a dream, you’re sitting there and you’re going somewhere else. There are certain tracks that have really given me this feeling of being in a dream when I made them. One of the first 7”s I released, ‘A Silent Cry’, that track just made itself. It’s the strongest one where I really felt something had just happened and it just came out. It was just done and I didn’t even know what had happened, the process was blurry.

It’s an interesting idea…

PW: I don’t know what it is. You’ll have a sample and you’ll pick up the first record out of a thousand, drop the needle down on the first thing and it happens. For ‘A Silent Cry’ for example I had a beat going on, picked up a random record, put the needle down and it hit on this orchestral vocal and it just felt right, I was like ‘ok I didn’t look for that’ it was just all strange and it continued to happen with every element in the track and that was it. Within an hour I was playing it back and I was thinking ‘I don’t remember doing any of that!’ It was pretty weird. A nice feeling though, if only it was always like that! (laughs)

Actually that’s another thing, have you ever played instruments in your dreams?

PW: Yeah guitars, I used to play guitar and piano as a kid. I’ve had dreams of playing before, even though I can’t actually play much anymore. I don’t think it was ever a dream of recording music, just playing it and mucking around and playing with ideas.

What about records? You ever had digging dreams?

PW: Ah man… really frustrating ones. I had a dream not long ago, actually I forget them all but you’re jogging my memory, but yeah I was somewhere and just found the most amazing records – artwork and everything. And I woke up and I had all the artwork in my head and I really wished I could remember, these really dope covers and just weird abstract stuff I couldn’t even draw again. I just remember picking up a lot of stuff and thinking ‘this is going to be good’ and then just waking up and being so gutted. There was amazing synth music in there, African stuff… it was so frustrating waking to realise it was a dream. So I guess it’s also a good thing I don’t remember all my dreams otherwise I’d be constantly gutted. Too much torture.

Ok well the last thing, keeping on the dream subject, what would be your perfect dream?

PW: It’s a hard question that innit? Because would you want it to be a dream at all? (laughs) So maybe it would be really short. One or the other. Either a really short dream and waking up and having a moment of clarity and knowing everything I want to do and being able to do it after waking up, that would be a perfect dream because there’s nothing to frustrate me, it’s all clear. Or, just the perfect dream of what you want I guess, like for me being in an amazing place on the coast being able to surf and make music all day, because that is my dream. That’s it, if I woke up from a dream and got to do those two things and that was my life I’d be amazingly happy and say that’s a perfect dream but then I’d be so annoyed because it was just a dream!